rsvr.net Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > RSV / RSVR / FACTORY > Technical Chat
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - struggling to start
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


struggling to start

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: struggling to start
    Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 11:52
my rsvr 2002 is struggling to turn over,even though the batteries are staying above 12.0v. i have new plugs in it and fresh fuel E5. it will start first time with a jump start but can i presume its got a poor earth or is the starter motor needing replaced.
Back to Top
wigginsjp View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Location: calne
Status: Offline
Points: 3240
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wigginsjp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 12:06
Worth checking the starter solenoid is a genuine 150amp one and I’d recommend upgrading the starter cables, perhaps along with a battery if it isn’t a high cranking output one from AP workshops as a kit. 
Aprilia RSVR Factory 2007 V2 1060cc Big Bore
Aprilia RSVR Factory 2004 Race Bike
Kawasaki ZX10R 2007 Race Bike
Aprilia Tuono V4 1100 Factory 2020
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apworkshops.co.uk
Back to Top
Bladerunner919 View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2020
Status: Offline
Points: 262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bladerunner919 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 12:11
What is the battery voltage exactly? You really want to be at something like 12.6v rather than just over 12.0.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 12:15
i will make a start on these tips, i have owened the bike for about 15 years with 31k on the clock. its never given me any problems in the past.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 12:31
Originally posted by wigginsjp wigginsjp wrote:

Worth checking the starter solenoid is a genuine 150amp one and I’d recommend upgrading the starter cables, perhaps along with a battery if it isn’t a high cranking output one from AP workshops as a kit. 
sorry, hit the wrong icon. scroll up
Back to Top
426hemi View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member

owner of the big bore!

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Location: cannock
Status: Offline
Points: 5424
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 426hemi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 13:02
As said it’s worth getting the upgrade kit from ap, the wiring was only Just upto the job when new and the bigger cca battery will protect your starter sprag clutch from kick back which damages them.
Back to Top
redratbike View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
The Collector Messiah

Joined: 07 May 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 15832
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 18:17
check all earths , clean the starter switch contacts as well, check starter motor connections etc etc 


www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 18:59
Originally posted by Bladerunner919 Bladerunner919 wrote:

What is the battery voltage exactly? You really want to be at something like 12.6v rather than just over 12.0.
   just checked it again after charging it and its sitting at 12.4-12.5 max, then its dropping to 12.0, when running.   it started both times i tried it but could something be draining the battery if its dropping,or does it just need a good run.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 19:36
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

check all earths , clean the starter switch contacts as well, check starter motor connections etc etc 
it started both times today but i noticed the voltage is dropping when running. maybe something is draining it,especially at the point of ignition. maybe its just one of the tips you advised.
Back to Top
426hemi View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member

owner of the big bore!

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Location: cannock
Status: Offline
Points: 5424
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 426hemi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 19:44
How old is the battery ? You really need one with over 200cca And do you have an alarm fitted, if you do bin it, you’ll always have a drain as the bikes injected and has an ecu, as has been said clean all the connections including where the negative lead is bolted to the frame on the right hand side.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2022 at 20:36
Originally posted by 426hemi 426hemi wrote:

How old is the battery ? You really need one with over 200cca And do you have an alarm fitted, if you do bin it, you’ll always have a drain as the bikes injected and has an ecu, as has been said clean all the connections including where the negative lead is bolted to the frame on the right hand side.
     its 2 year old but its a cheapo with only 160cca.  no alarm but i have a power commander which will drain it a little.  i will check/clean all connections.  just noticed that it started ok today because i was using a better quality battery.  cheers.
Back to Top
Bladerunner919 View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2020
Status: Offline
Points: 262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bladerunner919 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2022 at 09:25
Are you checking at the battery with a meter, or looking at the dash reading? If the latter, then you need to test with a multimeter. If you're only seeing 12.0v at the battery using a meter when running, then you have a problem somewhere and you need to start looking for the voltage at coming out of the R/R as a start.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2022 at 10:45
Originally posted by Bladerunner919 Bladerunner919 wrote:

Are you checking at the battery with a meter, or looking at the dash reading? If the latter, then you need to test with a multimeter. If you're only seeing 12.0v at the battery using a meter when running, then you have a problem somewhere and you need to start looking for the voltage at coming out of the R/R as a start.           i,m doing both,just incase the dash is giving a faulty reading. had v-twins for 20 years ,so i know what you mean. i will double check it with the multimeter whilst running.  just treated myself to a lithium battery that will fit both my v-twins.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 18:07
Originally posted by 426hemi 426hemi wrote:

How old is the battery ? You really need one with over 200cca And do you have an alarm fitted, if you do bin it, you’ll always have a drain as the bikes injected and has an ecu, as has been said clean all the connections including where the negative lead is bolted to the frame on the right hand side.
                can you tell me exactly where its bolted onto the frame. i had an off once at knockhill and the tank is out of shape a little,making it a pain to unbolt and lift. i did look through my haynes manual but it does not say where the earth point is.  thanks,ray.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 18:18
checked the voltage again while running. dash is 12.8 and dropping to 12.2 when fans kick in.  at the battery with multimeter is 13.3 then down to 12.7 when fans kick in.
Back to Top
426hemi View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member

owner of the big bore!

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Location: cannock
Status: Offline
Points: 5424
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 426hemi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 18:39
Originally posted by raymond wynn raymond wynn wrote:

Originally posted by 426hemi 426hemi wrote:

How old is the battery ? You really need one with over 200cca And do you have an alarm fitted, if you do bin it, you’ll always have a drain as the bikes injected and has an ecu, as has been said clean all the connections including where the negative lead is bolted to the frame on the right hand side.
                can you tell me exactly where its bolted onto the frame. i had an off once at knockhill and the tank is out of shape a little,making it a pain to unbolt and lift. i did look through my haynes manual but it does not say where the earth point is.  thanks,ray.

On the right hand side pretty much underneath where the tank hinges it bolts to the inside of the frame and then down to the engine, just follow the negative lead down.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 18:44
Originally posted by 426hemi 426hemi wrote:

Originally posted by raymond wynn raymond wynn wrote:

Originally posted by 426hemi 426hemi wrote:

How old is the battery ? You really need one with over 200cca And do you have an alarm fitted, if you do bin it, you’ll always have a drain as the bikes injected and has an ecu, as has been said clean all the connections including where the negative lead is bolted to the frame on the right hand side.
                can you tell me exactly where its bolted onto the frame. i had an off once at knockhill and the tank is out of shape a little,making it a pain to unbolt and lift. i did look through my haynes manual but it does not say where the earth point is.  thanks,ray.

On the right hand side pretty much underneath where the tank hinges it bolts to the inside of the frame and then down to the engine, just follow the negative lead down.
   cheers
Back to Top
Stevex View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien
Avatar

Joined: 05 Jul 2016
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1239
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Stevex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 19:09
Access to the RR requires taking the seat cowling off, the RR is bolted to the right rear sub frame (on my Gen 1 Tuono...is the RSVR different?).
Check the white connector located between the engine V on the right side and the brown connector at the RR. Disconnect both as an external check wont tell you if the internal connections are good. Both these connectors can melt if the internal contacts are poor.
Use a volt meter to check the voltage at the battery terminals with the engine at 4K revs. You should have approx 14v.
The oem RRs have a reputation for giving up the ghost; I replaced mine with a Shindengen mosfet item from a Fireblade, FH014AA.
This gives you some very good info and was what persuaded me to check out my oem RR even though I'd not got any starting issues at the time. When I checked it my RR was producing low 13 volts at 4k, with the replacement that went up to the low 14v. You should have an absolute minimum of 13.5v, but ideally 14v-14.4v.


As already stated above, starter upgrade wiring and solenoid are also a must.
This is my replacement:


People say I don't know Jack Sh1t; but I do, he lives next door.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2022 at 19:25
Originally posted by Stevex Stevex wrote:

Access to the RR requires taking the seat cowling off, the RR is bolted to the right rear sub frame (on my Gen 1 Tuono...is the RSVR different?).
Check the white connector located between the engine V on the right side and the brown connector at the RR. Disconnect both as an external check wont tell you if the internal connections are good. Both these connectors can melt if the internal contacts are poor.
Use a volt meter to check the voltage at the battery terminals with the engine at 4K revs. You should have approx 14v.
The oem RRs have a reputation for giving up the ghost; I replaced mine with a Shindengen mosfet item from a Fireblade, FH014AA.
This gives you some very good info and was what persuaded me to check out my oem RR even though I'd not got any starting issues at the time. When I checked it my RR was producing low 13 volts at 4k, with the replacement that went up to the low 14v. You should have an absolute minimum of 13.5v, but ideally 14v-14.4v.


As already stated above, starter upgrade wiring and solenoid are also a must.    thanks for the info, i am just waiting on the lithium battery to arrive and i will do all the checks.  ie, r/r,earths,cables and starter switch.   cheers
This is my replacement:


Back to Top
ohmygewd View Drop Down
L Plates
L Plates


Joined: 21 Jan 2022
Location: Melb, Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ohmygewd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2022 at 13:56
Hey mate,

I had the same issue on my Gen1 and also in the past,  majority of twins (including duc's) require a minimum of 12.7 to start the bikes when cold using a multi meter at the terminals...anything lower and either the starter relay starts to click or  you can damage the sprag clutch as the unit tries to fire - i've had my battery at 12.5v and it barely started before 2 days later it failed to start at all (fast click of the starter solenoid).
If the bike is able to start and you are measuring less then 14v at idle and under 13.5 @3-4k rpm, it's an indication that the battery is on it's way out if not gone as it's failing to hold charge - start the bike, wait till it reaches 75C or so but not let the fan's come on, shut the bike down and with your multimeter, measure the voltage drop...if it drops quickly, time for a new battery. Now tap the starter but don't fire the motor, what does your voltage say? Under 12.5v?
The 160cca battery's are barely enough to start the ape's in good condition during autumn and if your battery drops any voltage due to age, then it's likely damaged and not retaining full charge - yes it will charge up with the battery charger/tender but you may have damaged cells.

Majority of aftermarket AGM's and Lithium's are 220+cca l use the Yuasa YTX14H-BS as reference.

Good luck!!
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2022 at 20:56
Originally posted by ohmygewd ohmygewd wrote:

Hey mate,

I had the same issue on my Gen1 and also in the past,  majority of twins (including duc's) require a minimum of 12.7 to start the bikes when cold using a multi meter at the terminals...anything lower and either the starter relay starts to click or  you can damage the sprag clutch as the unit tries to fire - i've had my battery at 12.5v and it barely started before 2 days later it failed to start at all (fast click of the starter solenoid).
If the bike is able to start and you are measuring less then 14v at idle and under 13.5 @3-4k rpm, it's an indication that the battery is on it's way out if not gone as it's failing to hold charge - start the bike, wait till it reaches 75C or so but not let the fan's come on, shut the bike down and with your multimeter, measure the voltage drop...if it drops quickly, time for a new battery. Now tap the starter but don't fire the motor, what does your voltage say? Under 12.5v?
The 160cca battery's are barely enough to start the ape's in good condition during autumn and if your battery drops any voltage due to age, then it's likely damaged and not retaining full charge - yes it will charge up with the battery charger/tender but you may have damaged cells.

Majority of aftermarket AGM's and Lithium's are 220+cca l use the Yuasa YTX14H-BS as reference.

Good luck!!    might get new lithium battery tomorrow and i can do some more checks,cheers
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 15:44
hi, only getting 12.89v @ 4,000 revs at battery with multimeter.  brand new lithium battery was just fitted and i have a power commander  on the bike. do i still have a problem or is it down from 14v to 12.89v because of the power commander.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2022 at 18:54
Originally posted by raymond wynn raymond wynn wrote:

hi, only getting 12.89v @ 4,000 revs at battery with multimeter.  brand new lithium battery was just fitted and i have a power commander  on the bike. do i still have a problem or is it down from 14v to 12.89v because of the power commander.
   i,ve done all the checks recommened. the earth on the frame from the negative is ok,also the earth from the engine is ok as well. brown and white connectors are in good condition at the r/r. the starter switch is perfect inside, the pin that holds the button together internally had moved about 2mm . it moved back into position no bother,so i dont think that was the problem unless it was parcially blocking the earth/circuit. with the new battery i am getting 12.5v at the clock and 13v at battery with a multimeter.  starting fine now,so thanks for all the tips.  ray.
Back to Top
Stevex View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien
Avatar

Joined: 05 Jul 2016
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1239
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stevex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2022 at 17:51
Originally posted by raymond wynn raymond wynn wrote:

hi, only getting 12.89v @ 4,000 revs at battery with multimeter.  brand new lithium battery was just fitted and i have a power commander  on the bike. do i still have a problem or is it down from 14v to 12.89v because of the power commander.

I would suggest your RR needs replacing; at 4K you should be getting 14-14.4v, the PC will make no difference to battery charge. With a lithium battery fitted you don't want it charging over 14.5v.
People say I don't know Jack Sh1t; but I do, he lives next door.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2022 at 20:48
Originally posted by Stevex Stevex wrote:

Originally posted by raymond wynn raymond wynn wrote:

hi, only getting 12.89v @ 4,000 revs at battery with multimeter.  brand new lithium battery was just fitted and i have a power commander  on the bike. do i still have a problem or is it down from 14v to 12.89v because of the power commander.

I would suggest your RR needs replacing; at 4K you should be getting 14-14.4v, the PC will make no difference to battery charge. With a lithium battery fitted you don't want it charging over 14.5v.
could do with a change in the weather just to give the bike/battery  a good run. the battery is taking a good charge but something is draining it when the bike is running.  would that be down to a sh*t r/r or something else draining the battery.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2022 at 21:05
100 quid for a blade r/r ?????
Back to Top
Spoonz View Drop Down
Admins Group
Admins Group


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Location: North Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 10520
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2022 at 22:19
The low voltage reading doesn’t necessarily indicate a drain. If the charging system is only outputting 13v ish then that is all you will get at the battery even with no drain at all. In 90% of instances I can think of on here where voltage is down on a running bike, it’s low charging system output, not drain as a cause.  
Back to Top
Bladerunner919 View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2020
Status: Offline
Points: 262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bladerunner919 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2022 at 22:47
Before you go spending any money on parts, I think you need to do a little more diagnosis. I would start with the output from the stator, as that is the first piece of the charging system.

You mention that you have a Haynes manual, so rather than replicate the procedure here, have a look at Charging System Checks in the Electrical System section (section 29 in chapter 9 in my Haynes manual - page 9.18 if you happen to have the same print edition). Under Output Tests it explains how to check the unregualted voltage from the stator. If that is good, then the R/R is a likely culpret, but you can then go on to check the output at the R/R and work from there.
Back to Top
raymond wynn View Drop Down
Moto3 racer
Moto3 racer


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raymond wynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2022 at 22:52
a bit annoying now that its starting ok,but being drained. i will look into these suggestions
Back to Top
Bladerunner919 View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2020
Status: Offline
Points: 262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bladerunner919 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2022 at 09:41
In a way it's easier to diagnose the problem with the bike running, so you're in a better position than if it wouldn't start. At least you csan check the stator and RR outputs.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.093 seconds.