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Rear Brake Upgrade 2002 Mille

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    Posted: 14 May 2020 at 16:24
Hi, I know this has been a bone of contention for many earlier model owners but is there or perhaps a suggestion of an 'upgrade' (i.e. larger/different make-type) of the rear brake for the RSV1000 stock bike (not an R or Factory)? Or some kind of fix for this? Mine's totally useless and had a bleed, new pads and rotor isnt' grooved but haven't replaced any parts (not rebuilt) yet btw from reservoir down. I know it's a Brembo but it's 100% useless. Never owned an Aprilia RSV prior so coming to this from a totally noob angle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 426hemi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2020 at 16:31
To bleed them you need to unbolt the rear caliper and lift it higher, I pull the brake pipe out of the plastic guide and cable tie the caliper ito the subframe upside down so the bleed nipple is on the top and then bleed it. The only real cure for them for a consistent pressure is to fit rearsets and move the master cylinder onto the rearsets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NickyBoy1984 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2020 at 16:34
Yep same as Hemi says, unbolt the calliper and move it to a higher position and then make sure the bleed nipple is top of calliper, mounting the master cylinder vertically is the only way of making sure you have a consistent rear brake.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2020 at 17:13
I would also check the age and condition of the pads as I did everything to mine including relocating the master cylinder, bleeding etc. I got a good pedal with no sponginess but the biggest benefit came when I just replaced the old but barely worn pads, cleaned up the disc and suddenly my brake was perfect! Maybe the pads had been overheated at some point (They looked OK) who knows but it was the pads that made the difference for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2020 at 18:29
I second that ,nothing wrong with my rear brakes on either bike and they've never needed bleeding apart from the yearly fluid change.

Actually I've somehow never needed to remove the caliper to bleed either although most do so

Decent SBS pads and all good to go Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote snowman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2020 at 18:53
On my gen2 Factory Tuono I fitted r/sets from A/P which improved the braking then later on i fitted some SBS730LS-A pads  (Ducati Mondo)which again improved it  . They also do Race pads but imo thought didn’t want to lock up on the rear , but I am running them in the front which one has to be very careful at low speed braking !! Oh Race pads aren’t legal on the road I’ve been told probably because of that reason ?. Good luck 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2020 at 19:21
I got SBS Race Sinter in front of both my bikes and I'd highly recommend them   Thumbs Up

No problems at all legal wise

Now Carbon pads I can see being frowned on as they don't work very well in the wet.

If you're talking iffy braking how many remember the first generation of disc brakes on Jap bikes? Absolutely useless in the wet,no braking at all,just zilch,better jamming your heels against the ground ,and those were legal Shocked

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 426hemi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2020 at 19:30
Sbs pads are some of the best I’ve ever used, I have the rs race sinter in my Pfm calipers on my zx9r and they’re fantastic pads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roost Squid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2020 at 19:39
Thanks everyone and yep, I will change the pads to sintered (I think those have copper in them from memory?). Thank you very much 426hemi, great advice and very appreciated, shall do. Coincidentally, I used to own a Chrysler VH 2-door coupe back in the day in Australia with a 426 hemi thrown in it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 426hemi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2020 at 19:47
Lovely cars, my grandfather had a 76 ch sedan in a dark auburn red with the 5.2 I think, I was gutted when he sold it and he quickly bought a Ford mercury monarch but it wasn’t as nice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 09:35
There's a good thread on AF1 about bleeding the rear brake:

I think so long as it's properly bled it feels fine. I have to push hard to get it to skid but it's a sport bike really, you want a gentle rear brake with less chance of locking. My pads are also really old. I'd see if it improves after being properly bled before buying new pads. But I'm tight.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 10:19
My Tuono's rear brake wasn't very good when I bought it from a mate but I went through the bike and serviced it.

I scuffed any old pad deposits from the disc,changed the pads to SBS and replaced the fluid and that bought it back to what I'm used to.

As has been said before though,the rear brake isn't super efficient as if you're needing to stop that quickly chances are the back wheel is likely to be off the ground anyway,or at least all the weight will be on the front of the bike so a fierce rear brake taken with strong engine braking could have you locked up and sideways.

Re located master cylinder on rear sets won't help with brake efficiency per se,what it MIGHT do is stop any heat soak issues.

These issues seem to affect some bikes and not others so either Brembo's quality control was all over the place or more likely it seems to me that some people just can't bleed hydraulic systems thoroughly.

Not trying to be controversial here but some otherwise technically adept people people just can't seem to manage it,even with pints of fluid and vacuum this,reverse that,hang this up in the air and spin round twice anti clockwise while standing on one foot.

Old school rules Wink



 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roost Squid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 12:00
Thank you for the link blacklines. I must admit in all my time I've never seen a service bulletin issued by a manufacturer for something so simple as bleeding the brakes, saying basically don't do it the 'normal' way. I had a laugh actually when I read it, "We carried out some analysis and tests and concluded that a standard bleeding procedure could prove inefficient." LOL  Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 12:23
Yep, surely any mechanic worth the name would know that the bleed nipple needs to be at the highest point. I guess the other side of that though is that dealers have 'allocated times' service jobs and therefore the service bulletin probably also extended the time allocated to that job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 14:33
Yeah there's been lots of complaints about needing to take the caliper off to bleed. Much like the lack of grease nipples on the dogbone. I think the bike is designed for track where it'll get maintained often and it's not a big deal popping the caliper off.

If you don't mind taking half an hour or so bleeding the rear brake everytime you change fluid or rebuild the caliper then I don't see the big deal. I mean I've been having the front calipers off after every track day to clean the pistons and can see me doing full caliper strips at least once a year. It's a toy for me, not something I need to give thousands of miles of maintenance free transport through all weather. 

Ian, I always found in practice the rear tyre is normally skidding already from engine braking when braking hard. Think the rear brake is meant to be used gently from when you're releasing the front, trailing in. Though I don't dare go in fast enough to overcome the engine braking as it is. In fact I'm trying out a vacuum mod on the PPC to try to reduce engine braking a touch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 15:26
Yes,mine probably does as well,but I'm too tensed up to notice LOL

I can live quite happily with the engine braking,it's far less than my old Sv1000s and on road I hardly ever touch the brakes other than when coming to a halt.

People on bikes other than big twins hate following me as they just seem to expect brake lights. 

Many times I've backed off and glanced in my mirrors and found someone almost doing a stoppie just off my back light.Confused

It can bite though as I found out entering Coppice just using engine braking Ouch

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 15:34
As someone who rarely touches the rear brake at all apart from a hill start, the lack of power has never bothered me.  The rear sets make it feel more powerful as the lever is at 90 degrees to the m/c so you get better transfer of force. 

Track is another animal altogether
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blacklines Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 16:08
Originally posted by IanG IanG wrote:

... on road I hardly ever touch the brakes other than when coming to a halt.

People on bikes other than big twins hate following me as they just seem to expect brake lights. 

Many times I've backed off and glanced in my mirrors and found someone almost doing a stoppie just off my back light.Confused


Ha yeah on road I love the engine braking. It reminds me of scalextrix, where the throttle just directly controls speed. My Mille is my first bike as an adult (raced a KX60 2 stroke as a kid but that didn't compare) so it's all I know.

But I remember swapping with a mate and riding his Honda Hornet following him on my bike. He rolled off the throttle, I spotted it right away and started squeezing the brake. I had to brake hard on the Hornet to not run into the back of him. That was the Mille just under engine braking, and I was paying attention so wasn't taken by surprise by the lack of brake lights.

Maybe his bike just had crap brakes but I realised the stock ones on the Mille are pretty good really. Good feel and power I think. On track I tend to be good on the brakes compared with other riders around my pace. Which is surprising considering the old barge isn't light and I weigh over 16 stone. Maybe the engine braking helps more than I give it credit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2020 at 17:45
Going back to the OP I remembered something and found this which might be of some use



Uses a  Brembo 625.4.018.1B master cylinder from the Duc 1098 among others,and Ive heard of a 'blade unit being used as well

Perhaps the best solution if one doesn't want rear sets is this swap and also make the new brake line a few inches longer and swap the inlet/bleed unions around as well?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roost Squid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 09:20
Thanks IanG for the YT vid link. Appreciated. Interesting too as I was wondering about the root cause of this esp. being apparently a 'common' problem. The cause being too close and heating up by the exhaust, perhaps. Sounds reasonable as there must be something going wrong somewhere. I think I'll put some heat shielding at that point around the exhaust too then : )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 12:21
I think there's always been two concerns about the back brake a ) Functionality ( how it stops) and b) Reliability ( air in system,leaks etc)

I still doubt the heat argument as if that was the case every bike would be the same. Vibration has been guessed at as well over the years but no one ever really came to any real proven conclusion,just the idea that moving it improves things.

I never had any issues with my 2002 Mille as supplied and since fitting AP rear sets for track use and re locating the master I haven't found any change in the action or effect.

There is a school of thought that swapping to another master like the one from the 'duc or a 'blade one will make things better but I wonder if this proven or 'all in the mind'?

At the end of the day the disc is small,the caliper is crap and it's a sports bike designed to do 90% of it's braking from the front.

I think there might have been an alternative caliper available that had different size pistons to get more effort at the disc.  I don't remember where I found that info though.

I think the main issue with mine is feel rather than outright power,and this could be down to the pads used
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wigginsjp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 12:55
I’ve some SBS rear pads that I wanted to use but for whatever reason they dragged the moment I fitted them despite seeming free moving and no contact when on a stand. 
I fitted the worn ones back on and have no issue. 

The SBS material and plate is 7.8 mm thick when new and ebc are 7.5mm when new. 0.6mm overall. 

Anyone had this issue? Caliper is perfect and new hose and reversed bled with a good pedal. I’m baffled 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 12:58
Having had a Ducati 848 which uses the same M/C as the 1098, I can confirm an upgrade it isn’t. No air issues but it would struggle to stop a snail if it was in a hurry. 

My gen1 never had any rear brake issues, it would lock up the rear almost too easily. The Gen2 however was absolutely shocking until I relocated it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote legend88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 13:25
Originally posted by wigginsjp wigginsjp wrote:

I’ve some SBS rear pads that I wanted to use but for whatever reason they dragged the moment I fitted them despite seeming free moving and no contact when on a stand. 
I fitted the worn ones back on and have no issue. 

The SBS material and plate is 7.8 mm thick when new and ebc are 7.5mm when new. 0.6mm overall. 

Anyone had this issue? Caliper is perfect and new hose and reversed bled with a good pedal. I’m baffled 

I fitted SBS pads to the rear and they work really well, no sign of dragging for me. They replaced the Brembo pads that were in before them which for whatever reason no longer worked at all, couldn't even prevent me from rotating the wheel by hand while on the stand!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 13:33
Now that's the point that surprises me,I doubt they changed the spec much between the models so why do some work and not others?

Regarding the SBS pads,I have no explanation there either,I have them in the rear of both my bikes and they work just fine.

The only potential cause I can come up with is the CRAP Brembo caliper.  I've stripped both mine completely,split them and re furbed and they both suffer from the same issue which I bet most share.

The pin that holds the pads is misaligned when drilled,this skews the pads slightly,also I expect if you check you'll find the pads have gouged grooves into the caliper body which leads to them indexing when used.

I locally relieved this grooving so the new pads could ride through and also radiused the pad backing slightly to help. If the new pads are thicker you'll be indexing with the pads more in contact which in time will cook the pad and lead to more indexing.

All the rear calipers I've seen has had this wear so I think it's a generic fault with these calipers,proof perhaps that not all Brembo products are infallible.

 I did have some pics somewhere taken from my Mille years ago to show this wear if it doesn't ring any bells

Could only find this one that shows the misalignment


I did find this online though

Note the gouge that causes the pads to index and wear wedge shaped if left long enough

Every caliper I've seen has these wear grooves which are also present in the other 3 contact points not visible on this pic



I just found where that pic come from,see this vid  instead


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 14:10
On the gen2 a large part of the problem is heat soak.  The mounting of the M/C is a bit daft, bolted directly to the engine casing and next to the collector and inside the fairing. From about 05 they added a heat shield but made little difference.  Gen2 Tuono was a bit better as at least it had some air flow over it. 

I literally unbolted the m/c from the oem Position on my gen2 and bolted it to Gilles rearsets, and never had it not work ever again. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2020 at 22:36
Your right Spoonz about the Gen2 Tuono not suffering too much from this problem,I can vouch for that .I have just improved it with what I have done .
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