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Ongoing brake judder issue
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andyisavinit View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Feb 2023 at 23:12
Hope you can help again.

I am at my wits end with an ongoing brake judder issue. I posted about this months ago, I thought I'd solved it, but NO! it's still juddering.

Only when braking.

This is what Ive done to date:

• Changed discs to second hand straight discs (they are within runout tolerance)
• Discs mounted to very clean wheel hub (no dirt trapped to cause wonky mounting)
• Cleaned disc bobbins to within an inch of their lives with brake cleaner (they move freely, I didn't lube them with anything in fear of contaminating the braking surface)
• New pads
• New brake fluid
• Cleaned calipers (pistons are nice and clean and move freely)
• New all balls tapered steering head bearings (not loose)
• Wheel is balanced and no shudder/wobble during normal riding (not braking)
• Tyres are in good condition
• Calipers mounted in correct sequence as per Dave Moss YouTube video (so not twisted)
• I've also serviced the forks and uprated the spring to 10nm as I was pretty much maxed out on preload with the standard spring. Forks are good and straight (no accident) and feel great.
• Suspension set up for sag etc has been checked and is good

I’m going to fit new front wheel bearings. Ive removed them and they don’t seem bad at all (not grinding or crunchy, maybe the smallest ever lateral movement in one), but running out of ideas quickly. I don't have a bolt or threaded bar or washers large enough to tackle the pressing in of the new ones, needs to be about 200mm long (I might need a 33 or 34mm socket too). Anyone have one made up I could borrow?

One other consideration I can think of I suppose could be that the bottom yoke is damaged/bent (but it’s not been in an accident, and it’s not always been juddering so why would it be damaged (suppose I should check))

Could it be the tyre? It's an Avon Storm 3D (front and back (don't judge, I don't do track days and I reckon they're alright!)).

I wish I had another known good wheel to sling in to check (I sold a pair not long before I started experiencing this, f@#king typical). Would a standard NON oz wheel fit an ohlins "R" (if I could get one that is)?

Non of that has cost a lot of money, and even if it didn't fix the issue, I've improved the components. I don't want to buy new discs unnecessarily due to the cost, but that is slowly getting close to being my last option.

I've covered everything I can think of....WTF else could it be?
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andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
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Just to add to this – I don't feel it from slow speed braking.

Bike is a 2003 Mille r
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  •  There is a set procedure for refitting the front wheel which if not done can cause judder i think it goes like fit wheel and axle tighten left hand pinch bolts 10nm tighten axle nut check wheel spins freely and then tighten right hand pinch bolts 10nm if ohlins slacken left hand pinch bolts lower bike fit calipers apply brakes and and pump suspension a few times then tighten left hand punch bolts hope this helps 
its twins for me !!!!
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andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
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Points: 523 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 08:14
That’s missing the point where you torque up the calipers. 

I followed this. 


Is this what everyone one with a Mille r does?
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is the wheel straight ? 2003 R is radial so you need a radial brakes wheel or spacers behind the discs 

is the tyre ok … ??? 

you have assumed but still have the issue after all the other stuff you have changed 


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andyisavinit View Drop Down
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Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

is the wheel straight ? 2003 R is radial so you need a radial brakes wheel or spacers behind the discs 

is the tyre ok … ??? 

you have assumed but still have the issue after all the other stuff you have changed 

Mine isn't radial brakes. It's a 2002/2003 mille. on an 03 plate.

The wheel was involved in an accident, and I sent it to motorliner to sort out a dent in the rim. So I can only assume they would have checked it - so you're correct I assume it's straight. Wouldn't I experience symptoms in all riding situation if it wasn't straight?
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Brake discs can suffer high spots as well as run out from varying hardening of the disc causing non uniform wear. If you have something like a vernier gauge, clamp it around the disc and rotate the wheel and see if there is a spot where it gets noticeably tighter or looser.  Sometimes the high spot can just be where metal from sintered pads has collected on the surface and a good scouring with emery cloth or similar can help. 
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Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

Brake discs can suffer high spots as well as run out from varying hardening of the disc causing non uniform wear. If you have something like a vernier gauge, clamp it around the disc and rotate the wheel and see if there is a spot where it gets noticeably tighter or looser.  Sometimes the high spot can just be where metal from sintered pads has collected on the surface and a good scouring with emery cloth or similar can help. 

I haven't tested them with a vernier gauge, I could try, not sure it would go over the lip on the edge of the disc though, maybe a micrometer? I'll have a look when the wheel is back on with new bearings.

Another thing to add to my list of things Ive already done/tried is..

Number 101:
• Scrubbed disc surfaces with brake cleaner and scotch brite pad.
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If there’s a lip on your discs that stops you getting an accurate reading how about trying a Dial Test Indicator?  Just a thought.
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ok no radial brakes so 2002 model 

any non radial wheel will bolt in so falco , tuono , mille 

where you based ???  someone close may have a spare wheel/tyre  to try 


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Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

ok no radial brakes so 2002 model 

any non radial wheel will bolt in so falco , tuono , mille 

where you based ???  someone close may have a spare wheel/tyre  to try 

Ok thanks - that's good to know.

I met a guy from here on rsvr.net who lives in my town (bracknell). He leant me a pillion seat before and he's bought a few parts from me in the past. His has a non r. If the bearings don't fix it -I'll drop him message.
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I have pretty much the same problem on my Mille again an 03 non radial setup. 

I haven’t gone to the same exhaustive lengths you have to troubleshoot it (well done for trying all of that!) but I have worked through the obvious things like:

- Discs
- Pads 
- alignment 
- bobbins 
- cleaning of surfaces 
- etc 

I’m in Newbury Berkshire, you’re welcome to try my front wheel but not sure that would be helpful with ruling anything out!

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Originally posted by oscarb2b oscarb2b wrote:

I have pretty much the same problem on my Mille again an 03 non radial setup. 

I haven’t gone to the same exhaustive lengths you have to troubleshoot it (well done for trying all of that!) but I have worked through the obvious things like:

- Discs
- Pads 
- alignment 
- bobbins 
- cleaning of surfaces 
- etc 

I’m in Newbury Berkshire, you’re welcome to try my front wheel but not sure that would be helpful with ruling anything out!

I grew up in Newbury - still visit there regularly to see the folks. When I get to the bottom of this (AND I WILL) I'll let you know. Maybe pop round - always nice to chat with fellow owners.

Thanks for the offer of the wheel. I have another lined up now. Wish me luck.
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Nope!!!!!!! Wheel bearings aren’t it either. Changed last night (a valentines evening spent with my loved one, in the garage) and tested this evening. No change. 

So I’ll test with a different wheel and probably more importantly a different set of brakes discs. 

I reckon it’s the discs all along.  
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I'd better get my wheel out, then!
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Originally posted by Bladerunner919 Bladerunner919 wrote:

I'd better get my wheel out, then!

😂 yes please
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I’m in Calne Wiltshire 
I’ve a Brembo gen1 wheel as a race wet. I’ve also some custom ISR discs if you get stuck and need to test anything further. 
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Some brake disc material doesn’t like certain pads, I had braking waves on my gen1 and they didn’t like ebc and used to judder, cleaned the discs and swapped to sbs and it cured it.
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Originally posted by 426hemi 426hemi wrote:

Some brake disc material doesn’t like certain pads, I had braking waves on my gen1 and they didn’t like ebc and used to judder, cleaned the discs and swapped to sbs and it cured it.

That is very interesting. Ive got EBC's in now. With OEM Brembo discs. 

However, I bet there are hundreds of people running this setup....but worth a try I suppose.
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An update.

After the kind loaning from Danny aka bladerunner, and numerous swapping around of wheels and rotors, I have established the cause of this judder.

It's the rotors! When spun freely on the wheel they appear pretty damn straight. I was leant a DTI dial and the runout was only 0.2 (whether that is relevant with floating discs, I don't know) but that's within the books tolerance, and the surfaces look good, so at a bit of a loss as to what's up with them. But they don't work!!

So after some new rotors now. The replacement Brembo's only seem to have black carriers now. Which is a shame as ideally want gold to match the oem and the ohlins forks.

There are EBC rotors that have gold carriers (they don't look as classy), but they are gold. And about £100 cheaper.

Anyone running EBC rotors that can vouch for them?
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I wouldn’t rule out the black tbf 

A change of colour is refreshing 
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That's whacky! Blue bobbins too. Those discs with blue wheels would be nice too. What are those rotors?
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Thanks for the update - sounds like you approached the troubleshooting systematically, it’s giving me some hope for curing my issue albeit an expensive one! 

Was the different with the different discs (assuming on your wheel?!) profound with a clear difference? Can’t remember if your issue was low/high speed judder or both? 

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Originally posted by andyisavinit andyisavinit wrote:

That's whacky! Blue bobbins too. Those discs with blue wheels would be nice too. What are those rotors?

ISR brake discs 
You could only get them made to spec/order. They do a few items and Diablo has used them in the past also so I think availability and range of products has increased since.
Calipers are Brembo Monoblobks  of a 1098 Ducati with matching rear. Really noticed the feel over the original stuff in terms of braking power and the old stuff was good already. 
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Originally posted by oscarb2b oscarb2b wrote:

Thanks for the update - sounds like you approached the troubleshooting systematically, it’s giving me some hope for curing my issue albeit an expensive one! 

Was the different with the different discs (assuming on your wheel?!) profound with a clear difference? Can’t remember if your issue was low/high speed judder or both? 

The difference was night and day. It was noticeable breaking from speed (50mph +), being the rotors, what ever the issue is with them, it but must be present always, but barely noticeable slower than that.

I visit Newbury regularly as my family are there. It sounds like you need to try a known straight set of rotors and front wheel. Which is what I did. Once again thanks to Bladerunner.

I haven't got new rotors yet, but when I do and I know for sure the judder has gone, I could come over with my wheel and discs and test it with you?

PM your number, lets have chat about it
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I’m sure the disc fitment on them is the same as exups and benelli tornado and a few other bikes.
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I put “ orio” discs on my 09 Tuono with SBS pads when  I had warped discs syndrome , only drawback was I lost the gold carriers as is a factory model, definitely an upgrade.
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Pleased you've sound the cure even if it was a trauma getting to that point!

Thanks mate appreciate the offer i will send you a PM shortly

Cheers 

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I bought some ebc discs from M&P.

I got lucky – as it's St Davids day today (1st march) and they're based in Swansea, for one day only you get 20% off everything. Saved myself £52.

So if you're after anything I would get over to their site ASAP.
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Let us have an update when you get the new Discs on Andy 
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