rsvr.net Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > RSV / RSVR / FACTORY > Technical Chat
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Ongoing brake judder issue
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Ongoing brake judder issue

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ongoing brake judder issue
    Posted: 12 Feb 2023 at 23:12
Hope you can help again.

I am at my wits end with an ongoing brake judder issue. I posted about this months ago, I thought I'd solved it, but NO! it's still juddering.

Only when braking.

This is what Ive done to date:

• Changed discs to second hand straight discs (they are within runout tolerance)
• Discs mounted to very clean wheel hub (no dirt trapped to cause wonky mounting)
• Cleaned disc bobbins to within an inch of their lives with brake cleaner (they move freely, I didn't lube them with anything in fear of contaminating the braking surface)
• New pads
• New brake fluid
• Cleaned calipers (pistons are nice and clean and move freely)
• New all balls tapered steering head bearings (not loose)
• Wheel is balanced and no shudder/wobble during normal riding (not braking)
• Tyres are in good condition
• Calipers mounted in correct sequence as per Dave Moss YouTube video (so not twisted)
• I've also serviced the forks and uprated the spring to 10nm as I was pretty much maxed out on preload with the standard spring. Forks are good and straight (no accident) and feel great.
• Suspension set up for sag etc has been checked and is good

I’m going to fit new front wheel bearings. Ive removed them and they don’t seem bad at all (not grinding or crunchy, maybe the smallest ever lateral movement in one), but running out of ideas quickly. I don't have a bolt or threaded bar or washers large enough to tackle the pressing in of the new ones, needs to be about 200mm long (I might need a 33 or 34mm socket too). Anyone have one made up I could borrow?

One other consideration I can think of I suppose could be that the bottom yoke is damaged/bent (but it’s not been in an accident, and it’s not always been juddering so why would it be damaged (suppose I should check))

Could it be the tyre? It's an Avon Storm 3D (front and back (don't judge, I don't do track days and I reckon they're alright!)).

I wish I had another known good wheel to sling in to check (I sold a pair not long before I started experiencing this, f@#king typical). Would a standard NON oz wheel fit an ohlins "R" (if I could get one that is)?

Non of that has cost a lot of money, and even if it didn't fix the issue, I've improved the components. I don't want to buy new discs unnecessarily due to the cost, but that is slowly getting close to being my last option.

I've covered everything I can think of....WTF else could it be?

Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2023 at 23:15
Just to add to this – I don't feel it from slow speed braking.

Bike is a 2003 Mille r
Back to Top
camngetit View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: nottingham uk
Status: Offline
Points: 1438
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote camngetit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2023 at 23:35
  •  There is a set procedure for refitting the front wheel which if not done can cause judder i think it goes like fit wheel and axle tighten left hand pinch bolts 10nm tighten axle nut check wheel spins freely and then tighten right hand pinch bolts 10nm if ohlins slacken left hand pinch bolts lower bike fit calipers apply brakes and and pump suspension a few times then tighten left hand punch bolts hope this helps 
its twins for me !!!!
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 08:14
That’s missing the point where you torque up the calipers. 

I followed this. 


Is this what everyone one with a Mille r does?
Back to Top
redratbike View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
The Collector Messiah

Joined: 07 May 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 16142
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 11:17
is the wheel straight ? 2003 R is radial so you need a radial brakes wheel or spacers behind the discs 

is the tyre ok … ??? 

you have assumed but still have the issue after all the other stuff you have changed 


www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 11:35
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

is the wheel straight ? 2003 R is radial so you need a radial brakes wheel or spacers behind the discs 

is the tyre ok … ??? 

you have assumed but still have the issue after all the other stuff you have changed 

Mine isn't radial brakes. It's a 2002/2003 mille. on an 03 plate.

The wheel was involved in an accident, and I sent it to motorliner to sort out a dent in the rim. So I can only assume they would have checked it - so you're correct I assume it's straight. Wouldn't I experience symptoms in all riding situation if it wasn't straight?
Back to Top
Spoonz View Drop Down
Admins Group
Admins Group


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Location: North Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 10722
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 12:04
Brake discs can suffer high spots as well as run out from varying hardening of the disc causing non uniform wear. If you have something like a vernier gauge, clamp it around the disc and rotate the wheel and see if there is a spot where it gets noticeably tighter or looser.  Sometimes the high spot can just be where metal from sintered pads has collected on the surface and a good scouring with emery cloth or similar can help. 
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 13:24
Originally posted by Spoonz Spoonz wrote:

Brake discs can suffer high spots as well as run out from varying hardening of the disc causing non uniform wear. If you have something like a vernier gauge, clamp it around the disc and rotate the wheel and see if there is a spot where it gets noticeably tighter or looser.  Sometimes the high spot can just be where metal from sintered pads has collected on the surface and a good scouring with emery cloth or similar can help. 

I haven't tested them with a vernier gauge, I could try, not sure it would go over the lip on the edge of the disc though, maybe a micrometer? I'll have a look when the wheel is back on with new bearings.

Another thing to add to my list of things Ive already done/tried is..

Number 101:
• Scrubbed disc surfaces with brake cleaner and scotch brite pad.
Back to Top
Horseheed View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member
Avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2017
Location: Durham
Status: Offline
Points: 163
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Horseheed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 14:26
If there’s a lip on your discs that stops you getting an accurate reading how about trying a Dial Test Indicator?  Just a thought.
Back to Top
redratbike View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
The Collector Messiah

Joined: 07 May 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 16142
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 17:48
ok no radial brakes so 2002 model 

any non radial wheel will bolt in so falco , tuono , mille 

where you based ???  someone close may have a spare wheel/tyre  to try 


www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2023 at 20:07
Originally posted by redratbike redratbike wrote:

ok no radial brakes so 2002 model 

any non radial wheel will bolt in so falco , tuono , mille 

where you based ???  someone close may have a spare wheel/tyre  to try 

Ok thanks - that's good to know.

I met a guy from here on rsvr.net who lives in my town (bracknell). He leant me a pillion seat before and he's bought a few parts from me in the past. His has a non r. If the bearings don't fix it -I'll drop him message.
Back to Top
oscarb2b View Drop Down
Moto2 racer
Moto2 racer


Joined: 27 Jun 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 195
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 05:59
I have pretty much the same problem on my Mille again an 03 non radial setup. 

I haven’t gone to the same exhaustive lengths you have to troubleshoot it (well done for trying all of that!) but I have worked through the obvious things like:

- Discs
- Pads 
- alignment 
- bobbins 
- cleaning of surfaces 
- etc 

I’m in Newbury Berkshire, you’re welcome to try my front wheel but not sure that would be helpful with ruling anything out!

www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2023 at 17:00
Originally posted by oscarb2b oscarb2b wrote:

I have pretty much the same problem on my Mille again an 03 non radial setup. 

I haven’t gone to the same exhaustive lengths you have to troubleshoot it (well done for trying all of that!) but I have worked through the obvious things like:

- Discs
- Pads 
- alignment 
- bobbins 
- cleaning of surfaces 
- etc 

I’m in Newbury Berkshire, you’re welcome to try my front wheel but not sure that would be helpful with ruling anything out!

I grew up in Newbury - still visit there regularly to see the folks. When I get to the bottom of this (AND I WILL) I'll let you know. Maybe pop round - always nice to chat with fellow owners.

Thanks for the offer of the wheel. I have another lined up now. Wish me luck.
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2023 at 21:15
Nope!!!!!!! Wheel bearings aren’t it either. Changed last night (a valentines evening spent with my loved one, in the garage) and tested this evening. No change. 

So I’ll test with a different wheel and probably more importantly a different set of brakes discs. 

I reckon it’s the discs all along.  
Back to Top
Bladerunner919 View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member


Joined: 19 Mar 2020
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 365
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bladerunner919 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2023 at 21:26
I'd better get my wheel out, then!
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2023 at 22:27
Originally posted by Bladerunner919 Bladerunner919 wrote:

I'd better get my wheel out, then!

😂 yes please
Back to Top
wigginsjp View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Location: calne
Status: Offline
Points: 3460
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wigginsjp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2023 at 06:51
I’m in Calne Wiltshire 
I’ve a Brembo gen1 wheel as a race wet. I’ve also some custom ISR discs if you get stuck and need to test anything further. 

Aprilia RSVR Factory 2007 V2 1060cc Big Bore
Aprilia RSVR Factory 2004 Race Bike
Kawasaki ZX10R 2007 Race Bike
Aprilia Tuono V4 1100 Factory 2020
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apworkshops.co.uk
Back to Top
426hemi View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member

owner of the big bore!

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Location: cannock
Status: Offline
Points: 5674
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 426hemi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2023 at 12:53
Some brake disc material doesn’t like certain pads, I had braking waves on my gen1 and they didn’t like ebc and used to judder, cleaned the discs and swapped to sbs and it cured it.
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2023 at 17:43
Originally posted by 426hemi 426hemi wrote:

Some brake disc material doesn’t like certain pads, I had braking waves on my gen1 and they didn’t like ebc and used to judder, cleaned the discs and swapped to sbs and it cured it.

That is very interesting. Ive got EBC's in now. With OEM Brembo discs. 

However, I bet there are hundreds of people running this setup....but worth a try I suppose.
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 19:07
An update.

After the kind loaning from Danny aka bladerunner, and numerous swapping around of wheels and rotors, I have established the cause of this judder.

It's the rotors! When spun freely on the wheel they appear pretty damn straight. I was leant a DTI dial and the runout was only 0.2 (whether that is relevant with floating discs, I don't know) but that's within the books tolerance, and the surfaces look good, so at a bit of a loss as to what's up with them. But they don't work!!

So after some new rotors now. The replacement Brembo's only seem to have black carriers now. Which is a shame as ideally want gold to match the oem and the ohlins forks.

There are EBC rotors that have gold carriers (they don't look as classy), but they are gold. And about £100 cheaper.

Anyone running EBC rotors that can vouch for them?
Back to Top
wigginsjp View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Location: calne
Status: Offline
Points: 3460
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wigginsjp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 20:39
I wouldn’t rule out the black tbf 

A change of colour is refreshing 


Aprilia RSVR Factory 2007 V2 1060cc Big Bore
Aprilia RSVR Factory 2004 Race Bike
Kawasaki ZX10R 2007 Race Bike
Aprilia Tuono V4 1100 Factory 2020
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apworkshops.co.uk
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2023 at 22:37
That's whacky! Blue bobbins too. Those discs with blue wheels would be nice too. What are those rotors?
Back to Top
oscarb2b View Drop Down
Moto2 racer
Moto2 racer


Joined: 27 Jun 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 195
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2023 at 05:40
Thanks for the update - sounds like you approached the troubleshooting systematically, it’s giving me some hope for curing my issue albeit an expensive one! 

Was the different with the different discs (assuming on your wheel?!) profound with a clear difference? Can’t remember if your issue was low/high speed judder or both? 

www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk
Back to Top
wigginsjp View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Location: calne
Status: Offline
Points: 3460
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wigginsjp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2023 at 06:49
Originally posted by andyisavinit andyisavinit wrote:

That's whacky! Blue bobbins too. Those discs with blue wheels would be nice too. What are those rotors?

ISR brake discs 
You could only get them made to spec/order. They do a few items and Diablo has used them in the past also so I think availability and range of products has increased since.
Calipers are Brembo Monoblobks  of a 1098 Ducati with matching rear. Really noticed the feel over the original stuff in terms of braking power and the old stuff was good already. 
Aprilia RSVR Factory 2007 V2 1060cc Big Bore
Aprilia RSVR Factory 2004 Race Bike
Kawasaki ZX10R 2007 Race Bike
Aprilia Tuono V4 1100 Factory 2020
www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apworkshops.co.uk
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2023 at 14:04
Originally posted by oscarb2b oscarb2b wrote:

Thanks for the update - sounds like you approached the troubleshooting systematically, it’s giving me some hope for curing my issue albeit an expensive one! 

Was the different with the different discs (assuming on your wheel?!) profound with a clear difference? Can’t remember if your issue was low/high speed judder or both? 

The difference was night and day. It was noticeable breaking from speed (50mph +), being the rotors, what ever the issue is with them, it but must be present always, but barely noticeable slower than that.

I visit Newbury regularly as my family are there. It sounds like you need to try a known straight set of rotors and front wheel. Which is what I did. Once again thanks to Bladerunner.

I haven't got new rotors yet, but when I do and I know for sure the judder has gone, I could come over with my wheel and discs and test it with you?

PM your number, lets have chat about it
Back to Top
426hemi View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member

owner of the big bore!

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Location: cannock
Status: Offline
Points: 5674
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 426hemi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2023 at 14:36
I’m sure the disc fitment on them is the same as exups and benelli tornado and a few other bikes.
Back to Top
snowman View Drop Down
Premium Member
Premium Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2010
Location: Romsey area
Status: Offline
Points: 1377
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2023 at 14:54
I put “ orio” discs on my 09 Tuono with SBS pads when  I had warped discs syndrome , only drawback was I lost the gold carriers as is a factory model, definitely an upgrade.
Back to Top
oscarb2b View Drop Down
Moto2 racer
Moto2 racer


Joined: 27 Jun 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 195
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oscarb2b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2023 at 15:31
Pleased you've sound the cure even if it was a trauma getting to that point!

Thanks mate appreciate the offer i will send you a PM shortly

Cheers 

www.apriliaperformance.co.uk
www.apriliaforum.co.uk
www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk
Back to Top
andyisavinit View Drop Down
Moto GP Alien
Moto GP Alien


Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Location: Bracknell
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyisavinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2023 at 16:30
I bought some ebc discs from M&P.

I got lucky – as it's St Davids day today (1st march) and they're based in Swansea, for one day only you get 20% off everything. Saved myself £52.

So if you're after anything I would get over to their site ASAP.
Back to Top
Mich1960 View Drop Down
Moto2 racer
Moto2 racer


Joined: 09 Oct 2019
Location: Sutton-In-Ashfi
Status: Offline
Points: 100
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mich1960 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2023 at 20:07
Let us have an update when you get the new Discs on Andy 
Cheers 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.