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Stevex
Moto GP Alien Joined: 05 Jul 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1333 |
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Posted: 18 Feb 2022 at 10:54 |
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A couple of other checks I did before replacing the RR were these:
Disconnect the brown connector at the RR and check pre regulated voltage out put; with the engine running you should be getting (from memory) approx 20v at idle, rising to 70v at 4/5K. This is AC voltage checked between yellow wires 1-2, 2-3, 3-1, all readings should be equal. With the engine not running check each yellow wire to a ground. Obviously the voltmeter should indicate no leakage to ground. This can all be done at the brown connector; this assumes your yellow leads from the alternator via the white connector, up to the brown connector are all good. If the bike passes these checks, it proves your alternator is good and the RR is at fault. Is it possible to borrow an RR, slave it in and re check your voltage at 4K?
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People say I don't know Jack Sh1t; but I do, he lives next door.
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legend88
Premium Member Joined: 18 Aug 2013 Location: Newcastle Status: Offline Points: 6598 |
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Just to be clear and to double up on the comments of others, it does sound more likely to be the charging system so do your fault finding to determine where the actual fault lies rather than just buying new parts as a trial and error. It does seem to be quite rare on Gen1's but it can happen on any bike, especially as they get older. All batteries drain in use as they power the ignition system and other aspects of the bike. Even when not used most modern bikes will drain over time due to draw from the ECU, clocks etc. This of course is usually constantly topped up by the charging system when (If) the bike is run. A meter at the battery will show the voltage being input to the battery by the charging system and as has been said @4K this should be around 14V. Sorry if this sounds like Granny/sucking eggs but just thought a bit of discussion to bring everything to one place might help. |
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Bladerunner919
Premium Member Joined: 19 Mar 2020 Location: Bracknell Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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In a way it's easier to diagnose the problem with the bike running, so you're in a better position than if it wouldn't start. At least you csan check the stator and RR outputs.
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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a bit annoying now that its starting ok,but being drained. i will look into these suggestions
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Bladerunner919
Premium Member Joined: 19 Mar 2020 Location: Bracknell Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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Before you go spending any money on parts, I think you need to do a little more diagnosis. I would start with the output from the stator, as that is the first piece of the charging system. You mention that you have a Haynes manual, so rather than replicate the procedure here, have a look at Charging System Checks in the Electrical System section (section 29 in chapter 9 in my Haynes manual - page 9.18 if you happen to have the same print edition). Under Output Tests it explains how to check the unregualted voltage from the stator. If that is good, then the R/R is a likely culpret, but you can then go on to check the output at the R/R and work from there.
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Spoonz
Admins Group Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Location: North Devon Status: Offline Points: 10726 |
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The low voltage reading doesn’t necessarily indicate a drain. If the charging system is only outputting 13v ish then that is all you will get at the battery even with no drain at all. In 90% of instances I can think of on here where voltage is down on a running bike, it’s low charging system output, not drain as a cause.
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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100 quid for a blade r/r ?????
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Stevex
Moto GP Alien Joined: 05 Jul 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1333 |
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I would suggest your RR needs replacing; at 4K you should be getting 14-14.4v, the PC will make no difference to battery charge. With a lithium battery fitted you don't want it charging over 14.5v.
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People say I don't know Jack Sh1t; but I do, he lives next door.
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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hi, only getting 12.89v @ 4,000 revs at battery with multimeter. brand new lithium battery was just fitted and i have a power commander on the bike. do i still have a problem or is it down from 14v to 12.89v because of the power commander.
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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ohmygewd
L Plates Joined: 21 Jan 2022 Location: Melb, Australia Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Hey mate, I had the same issue on my Gen1 and also in the past, majority of twins (including duc's) require a minimum of 12.7 to start the bikes when cold using a multi meter at the terminals...anything lower and either the starter relay starts to click or you can damage the sprag clutch as the unit tries to fire - i've had my battery at 12.5v and it barely started before 2 days later it failed to start at all (fast click of the starter solenoid). If the bike is able to start and you are measuring less then 14v at idle and under 13.5 @3-4k rpm, it's an indication that the battery is on it's way out if not gone as it's failing to hold charge - start the bike, wait till it reaches 75C or so but not let the fan's come on, shut the bike down and with your multimeter, measure the voltage drop...if it drops quickly, time for a new battery. Now tap the starter but don't fire the motor, what does your voltage say? Under 12.5v? The 160cca battery's are barely enough to start the ape's in good condition during autumn and if your battery drops any voltage due to age, then it's likely damaged and not retaining full charge - yes it will charge up with the battery charger/tender but you may have damaged cells. Majority of aftermarket AGM's and Lithium's are 220+cca l use the Yuasa YTX14H-BS as reference. Good luck!!
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Stevex
Moto GP Alien Joined: 05 Jul 2016 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1333 |
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Access to the RR requires taking the seat cowling off, the RR is bolted to the right rear sub frame (on my Gen 1 Tuono...is the RSVR different?).
Check the white connector located between the engine V on the right side and the brown connector at the RR. Disconnect both as an external check wont tell you if the internal connections are good. Both these connectors can melt if the internal contacts are poor. Use a volt meter to check the voltage at the battery terminals with the engine at 4K revs. You should have approx 14v. The oem RRs have a reputation for giving up the ghost; I replaced mine with a Shindengen mosfet item from a Fireblade, FH014AA. This gives you some very good info and was what persuaded me to check out my oem RR even though I'd not got any starting issues at the time. When I checked it my RR was producing low 13 volts at 4k, with the replacement that went up to the low 14v. You should have an absolute minimum of 13.5v, but ideally 14v-14.4v. As already stated above, starter upgrade wiring and solenoid are also a must. This is my replacement: |
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People say I don't know Jack Sh1t; but I do, he lives next door.
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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426hemi
Premium Member owner of the big bore! Joined: 30 Mar 2012 Location: cannock Status: Online Points: 5677 |
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On the right hand side pretty much underneath where the tank hinges it bolts to the inside of the frame and then down to the engine, just follow the negative lead down. |
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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checked the voltage again while running. dash is 12.8 and dropping to 12.2 when fans kick in. at the battery with multimeter is 13.3 then down to 12.7 when fans kick in.
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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raymond wynn
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Bladerunner919
Premium Member Joined: 19 Mar 2020 Location: Bracknell Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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Are you checking at the battery with a meter, or looking at the dash reading? If the latter, then you need to test with a multimeter. If you're only seeing 12.0v at the battery using a meter when running, then you have a problem somewhere and you need to start looking for the voltage at coming out of the R/R as a start.
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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426hemi
Premium Member owner of the big bore! Joined: 30 Mar 2012 Location: cannock Status: Online Points: 5677 |
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How old is the battery ? You really need one with over 200cca And do you have an alarm fitted, if you do bin it, you’ll always have a drain as the bikes injected and has an ecu, as has been said clean all the connections including where the negative lead is bolted to the frame on the right hand side.
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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redratbike
Moderator Group The Collector Messiah Joined: 07 May 2008 Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
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check all earths , clean the starter switch contacts as well, check starter motor connections etc etc
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www.apriliaperformance.co.uk www.apriliaforum.co.uk www.apriliaownersclub.co.uk |
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426hemi
Premium Member owner of the big bore! Joined: 30 Mar 2012 Location: cannock Status: Online Points: 5677 |
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As said it’s worth getting the upgrade kit from ap, the wiring was only Just upto the job when new and the bigger cca battery will protect your starter sprag clutch from kick back which damages them.
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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raymond wynn
Moto3 racer Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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i will make a start on these tips, i have owened the bike for about 15 years with 31k on the clock. its never given me any problems in the past.
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Bladerunner919
Premium Member Joined: 19 Mar 2020 Location: Bracknell Status: Offline Points: 376 |
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What is the battery voltage exactly? You really want to be at something like 12.6v rather than just over 12.0.
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