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Big Bore, the return.

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tapmyhed View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Jul 2014 at 21:43
Alright, let's try this again.

The original posting is a fair few pages long!!!

Anyways...back on track, one small step at a time. Got my heads back on Friday, all nice and shrouded and ported a teeny bit too. Gasket faces cleaned up. Put the heads back together today, took an hour. Next job is ring gap. Got some pics, but on camera for now.

After the ring gaps, first assembly, without rings fitted, to measure valve to piston clearances after the cam chain setup.

After that, and all going well, the exhaust headers and link pipes, and pistons will be sent to cam coat for coating.

After that, full assembly.....sounds easy, but fuk, its taken a year to get here!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote j180 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2014 at 22:09
Hope you get it oan the road before all the good weather pisses off mucker.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WARNZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2014 at 22:30
After that, and all going well, the exhaust headers and link pipes, and pistons will be sent to cam coat for coating.

After that, full assembly.....sounds easy, but fuk, its taken a year to get here!!!![/QUOTE]

Taps is that for ceramic coating??? Is it working out expensive if you don't mind me asking

Glad yr getting back on track with it fella
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2014 at 22:37
Not too expensive...I think about 100 all in. Have to send some pics to them of the headers. The pistons will get 3 treatments; skirts, face and underside. Will give more details later once I phoned them up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rtomo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2014 at 10:37
ceramic coated pistons ?? sounds fancy tap!!

whats the science behind that mate? just interested :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2014 at 10:46
Coating will be for reduced friction and wear i suspect. And it might make a bit more hp with the friction reduction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rtomo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2014 at 11:20
Happy days! every little helps and all that ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2014 at 13:54
3 things for the pistons

Harden the face
Reduce skirt to bore friction to prevent galling whilst bedding in bores
Conduct heat away from piston face quicker

I didn't say why I went ahead and got the heads neatened up. Main reason was to bring static compression down a little. By shrouding the valves a little, valuable ccs of combustion chamber were added. I'm trying to keep stock compression ratio. In reality, its a bit better, but not the same....but in the right direction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2014 at 23:05
Me again.......and back to the old subject of injectors.......

Anyone know what the stock rotax injectors for the gen 2 engine are rated at?

cc/min or lb/hr is ok.

I was reading some interesting stuff on injectors; that for an engine on WOT, they should be at 80% duty...apparently, its a tuners rule of thumb.  Obviously, lots of little things come into the balance....but based on this and some maths, I reckon a standard rotax lump pushing out 135 bhp should have a 42 lb/hr (440 cc/min) injector working at 80%.

If you calculate 145 BHP, then the injectors need to be increased to 475 cc/min
150 BHP then thats 492 cc/min

Now I've heard of people upgrading to green giants, which are 42/440....so begs the question, whats the stock rated at?????

Another interesting thing I read from Micah on AF1, with the 1103 and the 1127cc BB, they use 62/660, which according to the maths = 194 BHP!!!!  Why they go so big, I have no idea.

From what I can see, and looking at what is available AND making an assumption that the green giants are the equiv of the rotax injectors, at 42/440, the next size up has to be 52/550, alos known as Blue Giants....who thinks these names up????

The only problem with those is they come with the EV6 connector, not the EV1...so for another tenner, I'd need a plug converter.

Anyways.......does anyone actually know the rating of the stock.  I ask, as according to Griff, the stocks are good up to about 96% duty...on the big bore conversion, and to be fair, its not often your on WOT. (Wide open throttle for the uninitiated!!! I know cheeky fecker.....!!!)

So, help me out......I can get the blue giants for about £88 quid delivered (plus import taxes if I get sussed) which isn't bad really to get the motor running sweet.

All replies welcome!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2014 at 09:03
There is a guy on Af1 who had his injectors flow tested after a clean by a specialist. They flowed 111cc @ 3 bar during 30 seconds with 50% duty cycle which Gabro worked out to be 400cc/min with a 90% duty.

If you are looking for 475 i don't think you are gonna get it on the stock setup although you might get closer if you up the stock fuel pressure a little.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2014 at 10:35
Thanks Spoonz.

That kind of makes sense.  The Greens lift things up a tad.  Probably OK for the 1060 kit perhaps...low 90s duty at WOT??

I dont really want to be messing about with the fuel pressure.  Its another variable I am trying to avoid for the moment.

I think I might as well get the blue giants...see how I get on with them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoonz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2014 at 11:19

I think even upping the fuel pressure to say 3.3 or 3.5 bar likely not get you to 475 so changing the injectors would be more sensible if you think you need it. It's a more exact science in terms of you know they will deliver wheras fuel pressure is an unknown in terms of returns until you go there and find out.

Would be a nice experiment to have the bike dynoed with stock and higher rated injectors to see what you actually get back for your investment. Would be good info for the future big bore projects to know for sure what is a must, maybe or nah don't need it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 20:48
Managed to get some rings done today, between epic fits from the kids...







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diggs345 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2014 at 22:23
I read somewhere on af1 that they tried an upgraded fpr , and modify the standard , and they found leaving the stock one as the best option , there are also contradictions on what size injectors to use to bring down the duty cycle .


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 16:16
Originally posted by Diggs345 Diggs345 wrote:

I read somewhere on af1 that they tried an upgraded fpr , and modify the standard , and they found leaving the stock one as the best option , there are also contradictions on what size injectors to use to bring down the duty cycle .

website here for some info

http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx?UserID=23916106&SessionID=6OC9rxF9lp3dqIuXqJxJ


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 16:17
Any update on your build dude?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 15:34
Nope....been on camper van hols. Just got back. Knackered....and will never do it again......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 15:37
I checked out that website a couple of weeks back. Did some maths on injectors. Its pretty spot on and since then been in touch with a Bosch supplier. He sent me a link to buy a pair of compatible injectors that matched my calcs. So its a matter of placing an order.
Since i just got back from holiday from hell, I'm playing catch up but planning on one of two jobs tomorrow....crack on with engine or upgrade lights on the tiger.....both a full day. Question is whether the missus will let me dodge the kids for a full day or not......????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 15:42
Nice to be back though. Even nicer was spotting griff in the bike mag whilst having a crap, hiding from the kids up in a camp site on the Norfolk broads......brought a smile to my burdened face.

Just to put things in context....a campervan, a side awning, a teenager who is a complete nob, 2 younguns 3 and 5 who fight over everything and to top it off, I couldn't drive a single mile. We hired the van, and because my drivers licence didn't have my up to date address on it, I couldn't drive. The missus got that job for the week.....so a teenager, two terrors and a miffed missus, squeezed into a bus...and the weather was sh*te too.......I'm f**ked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 16:09
ha ha sounds like you need a week off (in the garage)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 16:41
well if my mug bought you pleasure then im stoked for ya buddy....i aint gonna lie thats the first time anyone has ever said that about me (my mum beng the exception to that of course) , even better, you were on the sh*tter when it happened. Id lke to think that i may in some small way i eased your daily ablousions as well as help ed with your big bore conversion!

may the force be with you Tap! ...and the kleenex!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 16:48
Griff....you make it sound like I was tugging one off!!! Redrat....a week...more like a month, but lucky me, I should be going to Budapest for a few days soon.....bliss!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redratbike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 16:48
Originally posted by fusebox fusebox wrote:

you were on the sh*tter when it happened.
.
big bore conversion!
.
!
theres a joke there somewhere i am sure?Clown


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusebox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 17:00
tap ..what you do during your morning session in the can is entirely your own business, its not a spectator sport really is it!

hehehehe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidrsurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2014 at 17:17
Originally posted by tapmyhed tapmyhed wrote:

Nice to be back though. Even nicer was spotting griff in the bike mag whilst having a crap & STICKING THE PAGES TOGETHER.

 
 uGH!
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dave....wrong!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gazza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 09:19
Originally posted by fusebox fusebox wrote:

dave....wrong!

Wrong indeed, very wrong, but probably trueLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tapmyhed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 17:37
Enough!!!!!! Heheh!

Well....productive day today. Engine assembled!!!!!!
OK first build for clearances and cam timing. Rotates OK, no obvious restrictions.

Was setting up the DTI when the missus called time.....dinner.

Got loads of pics on my phone so I'll post them up soon.

Feels nice to get on...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote j180 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 17:59
Getting closer mucker
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